[richard]

I listened to an outstanding Hallé Prom conducted by Mark Elder on radio 3 the other night - Richard Strauss Macbeth, Britten Les Illuminations, Nielsen 4th Symphony. It was music making of the highest order. Sadly all the reviews commented on the sparse attendance, swathes of red seats and hardly a crammed arena. Then last night on BBC 4 I saw/heard another fine Prom - Sibelius/Britten/Varèse/Debussy with the BBC SCottish Symphony Orchestra. The same was true - rows of empty seats. Earlier in the year on one web I suggested that the 'bread and butter Proms' (not that either of these were musically) would have poor attendances as the congestion charge (into which the Albert Hall now falls) was just one more hassle to put people off from going to the Albert Hall. Many contributors doubted this would be the case. Sadly, it seems that it is.

[Ian]

I listened to an outstanding Hallé Prom conducted by Mark Elder on radio 3 the other night - Richard Strauss Macbeth, Britten Les Illuminations, Nielsen 4th Symphony. It was music making of the highest order. Sadly all the reviews commented on the sparse attendance, swathes of red seats and hardly a crammed arena. Then last night on BBC 4 I saw/heard another fine Prom - Sibelius/Britten/Varèse/Debussy with the BBC SCottish Symphony Orchestra. The same was true - rows of empty seats. Earlier in the year on one web I suggested that the 'bread and butter Proms' (not that either of these were musically) would have poor attendances as the congestion charge (into which the Albert Hall now falls) was just one more hassle to put people off from going to the Albert Hall. Many contributors doubted this would be the case. Sadly, it seems that it is.

Perhaps if the BBC had produced a TV series to select the conductor, naturally using music unconnected to the proms, and then found roles for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed contestants they would have done better at the box office.......

[musicals fan]

I attended an early Prom - conducted by Sir John Eliot Gardner with Baroque music plus dancing including the interesting Soweto performers, and the upper amphitheatre was practically empty.
Perhaps the Proms needs a re-think because there is so much music available now. Another aspect too is that when the Proms run there is practically no other classical music in London- at least at the main venues.
Possibly audience need a break, but these days with the decline in recording work there is great pressure on orchestras to perform.

[Orchestrator]

I listened to an outstanding Hallé Prom conducted by Mark Elder on radio 3 the other night - Richard Strauss Macbeth, Britten Les Illuminations, Nielsen 4th Symphony. It was music making of the highest order. Sadly all the reviews commented on the sparse attendance, swathes of red seats and hardly a crammed arena. Then last night on BBC 4 I saw/heard another fine Prom - Sibelius/Britten/Varèse/Debussy with the BBC SCottish Symphony Orchestra. The same was true - rows of empty seats. Earlier in the year on one web I suggested that the 'bread and butter Proms' (not that either of these were musically) would have poor attendances as the congestion charge (into which the Albert Hall now falls) was just one more hassle to put people off from going to the Albert Hall. Many contributors doubted this would be the case. Sadly, it seems that it is.

The RAH holds somewhere in excess of 5000. For the sake of argument let's assume that prom attendees that come by car come in twos. A full-house with half the audience coming by car would mean 1250 cars parked within walking distance. Add to that a significant proportion of musicians, management, RAH staff, BBC employees etc who also use cars and you'd have about 1500 cars parked in the vicinity of the hall in addition to those of all the local residents, which I don't think is possible. My point is that the proportion of audience coming by car must be much less than half, probably less than a fifth; I suppose you might find more car users in the stalls and fewer in the arena and gallery. It would be extremely awkward to queue all day, as the arena folk do for the popular proms, and use a car.

My other point is that the congestion charge now stops at 6pm. Only the idle rich that are happy to pay high parking charges would want to get to South Ken before 6:30 and it will only take 30 mins from outside the zone so I can't believe the CC is a significant factor in the small audiencesw to which you refer.

[Matthew Winn]

My other point is that the congestion charge now stops at 6pm. Only the idle rich that are happy to pay high parking charges would want to get to South Ken before 6:30 and it will only take 30 mins from outside the zone so I can't believe the CC is a significant factor in the small audiences to which you refer.

I'm unconvinced as well. The congestion charge has become the latest excuse for failing ventures: "it's not us, it's the congestion charge".

Very few people drive into central London, and those that drive in for leisure purposes do so so rarely that the extra £8 isn't much of an issue even for those that get there early enough to pay it. Considering how expensive tickets are these days, people aren't going to be put off by the congestion charge any more than they're likely to say "Oh, I'll happily pay £50 to see [some show] but the train fare is £10 so I won't bother".

[richard]

Well, let's put it another way. Attendances at the Proms this year have not increased because the Albert Hall is now in the congestion zone. I write, not as a Londoner, but as someone who used to drive in from the Surrey/Sussex borders, and then used to drive in from North Oxfordshire where I now live, and meet up with friends for a meal at the Albert Hall before the Prom. 'Used to' is the operative phrase, as I am not going to any Proms this year, nor are any of the groups from Surrey/Sussex and Oxfordshire that I used to team up with. Multiplied, this must add up to a large number of similarly minded people. To eat beforehand one is entering the congestion zone before 6 p.m. 45-60 minutes on a meter is part of the cost of the evening AND EASILY PAYABLE. Frankly it is not the £8 for an occasional London visit (but I pity the essential workers such as nurses and teachers who have to pay this 5 times a week), but the hassle of paying it and the harsh penalties if somehow one gets it wrong.
Everything is just so much more simple to stay at home and listen on Radio 3 or watch BBC4.

[Orchestrator]

Well, let's put it another way. Attendances at the Proms this year have not increased because the Albert Hall is now in the congestion zone. I write, not as a Londoner, but as someone who used to drive in from the Surrey/Sussex borders, and then used to drive in from North Oxfordshire where I now live, and meet up with friends for a meal at the Albert Hall before the Prom. 'Used to' is the operative phrase, as I am not going to any Proms this year, nor are any of the groups from Surrey/Sussex and Oxfordshire that I used to team up with. Multiplied, this must add up to a large number of similarly minded people. To eat beforehand one is entering the congestion zone before 6 p.m. 45-60 minutes on a meter is part of the cost of the evening AND EASILY PAYABLE. Frankly it is not the £8 for an occasional London visit (but I pity the essential workers such as nurses and teachers who have to pay this 5 times a week), but the hassle of paying it and the harsh penalties if somehow one gets it wrong.
Everything is just so much more simple to stay at home and listen on Radio 3 or watch BBC4.

Why don't you use the train? Better for the environment and safer for you; you can also have a couple of drinks.

Parking meters in London are gradually being converted to pay-by-mobile schemes; these schemes are, if anything, harder than paying the congestion charge by mobile, which is easy.

Much of the nearby parking is Residents Only. How many parking meters within walking distance of the RAH are there? 100? A drop in the ocean if we are talking about 5000 seats.

I can't stand people treating the Congestion Charge as a grown-up version of the bogey man. It isn't perfect and it certainly isn't fair but it was the first of its kind and now cities all over the world are planning to implement similar systems. Ken Livingstone has been democratically elected as Mayor of London not once but twice. He's never made a secret of his transport policies and central government has done everything it can to limit his power to improve public transport.

If you choose to live in North Oxfordshire you'll have to expect some difficulties when you want to take advantage of what London has to offer.

[Matthew Winn]

Why don't you use the train? Better for the environment and safer for you; you can also have a couple of drinks.

Good question. I don't know anyone who'd choose to drive into London for leisure purposes. It's far easier to catch the train, and faster too. (It's nearly two hours from where I live to Euston by road but only 53 minutes by train. 70 minutes if I include the walk to the station.) It's not as if there's a shortage of lines running into London, and many people who don't have a local station go part way to London by car and then catch the train the rest of the way.

I can't stand people treating the Congestion Charge as a grown-up version of the bogey man. It isn't perfect and it certainly isn't fair but it was the first of its kind and now cities all over the world are planning to implement similar systems. Ken Livingstone has been democratically elected as Mayor of London not once but twice. He's never made a secret of his transport policies and central government has done everything it can to limit his power to improve public transport.

I remember that before the congestion charge was introduced I could walk from Euston to Southampton Row faster than traffic could make it along the same straight-line route during the evening peak. The congestion charge has made a substantial difference to people who genuinely need to drive in London.

Before the congestion charge was introduced this was the situation in central London:

* Average speeds of around 10 mph throughout the working day.
* The slowest 10 per cent of the central London network had an average speed of less than 6 mph throughout the day.
* Approximately one third of journey times in central London throughout the day were spent stationary.
(Source: Office for National Statistics)

[richard]

Why don't you use the train? Better for the environment and safer for you; you can also have a couple of drinks.

Parking meters in London are gradually being converted to pay-by-mobile schemes; these schemes are, if anything, harder than paying the congestion charge by mobile, which is easy.

Much of the nearby parking is Residents Only. How many parking meters within walking distance of the RAH are there? 100? A drop in the ocean if we are talking about 5000 seats.

I can't stand people treating the Congestion Charge as a grown-up version of the bogey man. It isn't perfect and it certainly isn't fair but it was the first of its kind and now cities all over the world are planning to implement similar systems. Ken Livingstone has been democratically elected as Mayor of London not once but twice. He's never made a secret of his transport policies and central government has done everything it can to limit his power to improve public transport.

If you choose to live in North Oxfordshire you'll have to expect some difficulties when you want to take advantage of what London has to offer.

If I choose to live in North Oxfordshire that is my business. You make it sound as though I deserve to be penalised because of this choice. I had fewer difficulties before the congestion charge was extended.
If I go to the National Theatre or the Royal Festival Hall, I use the train as the links are easy with the tube directly to Waterloo. The Albert Hall to Marylebone at 9.45-10.00 p.m. is not a journey made in heaven on public transport. There are hundreds of parking meters within walking distance of the RAH (which the tubes are not on a wet night).

[Orchestrator]

I listened to an outstanding Hallé Prom conducted by Mark Elder on radio 3 the other night - Richard Strauss Macbeth, Britten Les Illuminations, Nielsen 4th Symphony. It was music making of the highest order. Sadly all the reviews commented on the sparse attendance, swathes of red seats and hardly a crammed arena. Then last night on BBC 4 I saw/heard another fine Prom - Sibelius/Britten/Varèse/Debussy with the BBC SCottish Symphony Orchestra. The same was true - rows of empty seats. Earlier in the year on one web I suggested that the 'bread and butter Proms' (not that either of these were musically) would have poor attendances as the congestion charge (into which the Albert Hall now falls) was just one more hassle to put people off from going to the Albert Hall. Many contributors doubted this would be the case. Sadly, it seems that it is.

I've been thinking about this a bit more and I'm now of the opinion that the programme could be described as "slightly off the beaten track" for the people who flock to the most popular proms. Particularly when you are aware that Les Illuminations was a programme substitution for the earlier, much less well-known, Our Hunting Fathers with its strange English lyrics and word setting (eg Rats Away!). Additionally, for the Mail-reading stalls-ticket-buyers Mark Elder was the anti-patriot who backed out of conducting the Last Night on account of the invasion of Iraq, I think.

Varèse always frightens the horses.

In other words, Modern Music Causes Drop In Audience Numbers is hardly news. As someone has aready pointed out somewhere, the lack of any orchestral Mozart this year might well be a more significant cause of reduced audiences than the Congestion Charge.