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#1 User is offline   Max Von Mayerling 

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 11:22 AM

Can anyone help me out on the difference (if any) between an Orchestration and an Arrangement. Does an arranger distribute musical lines to instruments - lines that the composer wrote? To what extent is the Orchestrator also a substantial composer of motifs between the melody line. Begs the question - which acclaimed composers of musicals are chiefly tunesmiths/melody writers? Wow, that's enough questions - but I've always wondered....
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#2 User is offline   Orchestrator 

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE(Max Von Mayerling @ Jan 1 2010, 11:22 AM) View Post
Can anyone help me out on the difference (if any) between an Orchestration and an Arrangement. Does an arranger distribute musical lines to instruments - lines that the composer wrote? To what extent is the Orchestrator also a substantial composer of motifs between the melody line. Begs the question - which acclaimed composers of musicals are chiefly tunesmiths/melody writers? Wow, that's enough questions - but I've always wondered....

The simple answer is that there isn't a simple answer, Max. First, the words arrangement and orchestration and arranger and orchestrator are used interchangeably and without any precise definition, although definitions exist they are not always followed so nothing can be assumed by the use of one word rather than the other.

Also, the actual responsibilities of Music Arranger vary depending on area (film, tv, musicals, ballet, pop, etc) and from project to project.

A few composers of stage shows have orchestrated their music themselves, most notably Kurt Weill, but this is the exception rather than the norm - on the first production of a new piece composers generally need to be in the rehearsal room making the changes required by the director/producer. Some composers produce very complete piano parts that include most of the musical material for the orchestra (riffs, fills, countermelodies etc) and leave very little for the orchestrator to invent apart from which instruments do what and how the instrumental parts are voiced, how they fit together. At the other extreme some composers can't "write" music at all so an amanuensis is required to turn their singing or piano or guitar playing into musical notation. This amanuensis is sometimes also the arranger/orchestrator, and their job sometimes involves supplying things as basic as the chords. Often the composer writes the songs but the arranger or Musical Director has to provide all the incidental music {scene change, music under dialogue etc). It was very common in the 1950's to 1970's to have a Dance Arranger who would produce all the music for the dance routines in collaboration with the choreographer. They are still used now, but much less than before.

There are some famous contributions by orchestrators including the falling scale in the accompaniment to "People Will Say We're In Love" added by Robert Russell Bennett and the quote from Richard Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier in "A Weekend In The Country" added by Jonathan Tunick. Tunick is also responsible for the marvellous rising scale in the accompaniment to the second verse of "Losing My Mind". These examples obviously pleased Richard Rodgers and Stephen Sondheim, respectively, but I suppose we don't hear about the instances where an orchestrator has added something that the composer didn't like and insisted was removed.

If composers have had in-depth musical training at university or conservatoire then it is likely that they will compose most of what is necessary for the show; if they have had less traditional training then it is likely they will leave more for others to supply. Some composers would be unhappy at the thought of any discussion of how much of their shows was actually written by others. Other composers have left all their papers to National libraries so that scholars can study them and add factual research to idle conjecture. Quite often the truth dies with the orchestrator. Music copyists have their part to play in the process too.
Ooh, that Bernadette Shaw - what a chatterbox!
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#3 User is offline   Max Von Mayerling 

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 03:24 PM

Thanks for that brilliantly detailed reply - fascinating. I had a feeling that it was pleasantly murky which you confirm! I can see why a specialist dance arranger would have skill in enhancing musical parts to drive a particular beat or syncopation, with an awareness of choreographic potential that the composer might not have. I think the only publicly displayed example of amanuensis I can think of is in the documentary of Paul McCartney's making of the Liverpool Oratorio - working with Carl Davis. It's always been well known that McCartney doesn't read music, but clearly hears it vividly; tensions about ownership were apparent (though mildly expressed, or perhaps I read about them later). Apart from that example, elsewhere - as you say - it's a subject little talked about.
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#4 User is offline   Michael H 

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 02:57 AM

Very interesting converstaion, Max and Orchestrator.

QUOTE(Orchestrator @ Jan 1 2010, 02:40 PM) View Post
the falling scale in the accompaniment to "People Will Say We're In Love" added by Robert Russell Bennett


Is that the figure at the end of each line of the chorus? e.g. "Don't throw bouquets at me" Dum dum-de dum dum.
I wouldn't say a word that could be reckoned as injurious,
But to find a mother younger than her son is very curious,
And that's the kind of mother that is usually spurious.
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#5 User is offline   Orchestrator 

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE(Michael H @ Jan 2 2010, 02:57 AM) View Post
Very interesting converstaion, Max and Orchestrator.
Is that the figure at the end of each line of the chorus? e.g. "Don't throw bouquets at me" Dum dum-de dum dum.

Exactly so! I could have been clearer. The song is almost unthinkable without that figure.
Ooh, that Bernadette Shaw - what a chatterbox!
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#6 User is offline   Dawnstar 

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 09:58 PM

QUOTE(Orchestrator @ Jan 1 2010, 02:40 PM) View Post
the quote from Richard Strauss's Der Rosenkavalier in "A Weekend In The Country" added by Jonathan Tunick

May I ask where this occurs & what is quoted? I thought I knew Rosenkavalier pretty well but don't remember hearing anything that sounded like it in the Menier ALNM production last year so what was I missing?

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#7 User is offline   Orchestrator 

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 10:22 PM

QUOTE(Dawnstar @ Jan 2 2010, 09:58 PM) View Post
May I ask where this occurs & what is quoted? I thought I knew Rosenkavalier pretty well but don't remember hearing anything that sounded like it in the Menier ALNM production last year so what was I missing?

I didn't hear the recent Menier production. The Strauss theme quoted goes (ahem):

(F major, 6/8) C----A | D'-- C'-- |...F' G' | A'------ [maybe it's a tone higher in the show]

It might well be that Jason Carr, the orchestrator of the Menier version, decided to omit it, either on grounds of not enough loud instruments to make it work or avoiding something he knew wasn't Sondheim's idea.

A Weekend In The Country has lots of sections. The Strauss quote occurs in the Tunick original orchestration near the end just before the long dominant pedal.
Ooh, that Bernadette Shaw - what a chatterbox!
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#8 User is offline   Dawnstar 

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Posted 03 January 2010 - 05:46 PM

Thanks for the information Orchestrator. I'll have to check the OBCR & see if I can pick it out. I do remember reading that A Weekend In The County was cut for the Menier production so maybe that part was lost. Though more likely I just didn't spot it! A pity the Menier production didn't get a CR so I could check.
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