While I hope they get a decent deal I really don't think the union can hold back the floodgates on Sunday opening anymore. Every other area of the arts/sport world do Sundays and I think many audience members would prefer a Sunday afternoon to a Monday night.

The next trick will be sorting out the transport links. Having been to a West End show today and another on Sunday two weeks ago I'm amazed that London Transport can continue to provide such poor service at the weekends. On both occasions the majority of lines were closed/suspended/partially suspended/had planned engineering works/had unplanned engineering works/suffered from signal failure(s) causing huge increases in travel time, having to get places by roundabout routes and the inevitable unpleasant overcrowding on the lines that are running "normally". Folk aren't going to experiment with Sunday afternoon shows if its a hassle getting into theatreland. It's getting so bad that I now intend to check LT's website before I book for things - thogh that, of course, won't work when booking months in advance. Very aggravating

Generally I travel about by bus once I've made it into the West End. It's unendingly frustrating when the line I use to get into London in the first place has been killed, but I can always travel above-ground if I need to, then bus the rest of the way. I like the buses. They're... not perfect, but they sap less off your Oyster card than the Tube does, and you can at least see London out of the windows as you travel.

It's not just London Transport. Sunday is the day on which the least number of people work, so that's the day all but one lane of the motorway gets coned off and a fifty minute train journey becomes a two and a half hour bus ride.

I used to go to the London fringe theatres on Sundays but the transport reductions meant it was taking up most of the day. I was having to leave home in the morning for an afternoon show and was getting back in the middle of the evening, leaving me no time to do anything else. On a Monday, however, I can do a full day's work, get into London afterwards, see a show, and be home by midnight. Sunday opening might be easier for people who live in London, but for many people like me, in the large catchment area less than an hour from London, Monday is a much more convenient day.

There is absolutely no prospect of the transport situation changing. Engineering work needs to be carried out and transport staff need their days off, and with Monday to Saturday needing a higher level of service to match the higher level of demand it will always be that way.

As for travelling in central London itself, I walk. It's more reliable than public transport, and usually faster.

It's the same with all kinds of transport on Sundays it seems, at least in England. For someone like me, who goes to England on extended theatre weekends, it's such a pain trying to get back to Heathrow for a Sunday evening flight using any kind of train service (and let's not even think about the roads) from anywhere but London that I no longer willingly book to see anything in the provinces on Saturdays, since that will inevitable mean a very, VERY long and tedious travelling Sunday, starting at 8 am UK time in order to get back home at around 11 pm CET. I don't know if I'm just especially unlucky, but it seems that where ever I've gone recently, if I've had to make my way back towards London on a Sunday there have always been those "engineering works", honestly, just how much backed up maintenance work is there? Seems like about ten years' worth of it that's now having to be done all at once.

Coming from deepest Surrey, Sunday is usually the day the railways decide to lay on buses for our entertainment

So it seems the lack of a decent transport system will kill Sunday shows before they really get started.

This morning I heard an announcement at the tube station that went something like this: Apart from planned engineering work on the Circle, District, Central, Metropolitan, Jubilee and Victoria lines, all underground lines are operating a good service. HA HA HA.

Totally agree...but a matter of economics, yes? 3 miliion everyday prime-time payers in both directions vs the occasional weekend-raters for Sunday shows -- who will pay / suffer the astonishing inconvenience to get to the show. And tube lines needing updating since Queen Victoria. Whereas:



So the West End loses people like me, who live in London and rather like Monday night shows (and I have spent hayloads seeing them) vs the tourist / punter who will see a Sunday show regardless of the transportation hassle to get to it (and the transportation hassle will not be ending anytime prior to 2012, if then). *shrug* Seems a very easy equation. (Dammit.) Much as I hate to agree to it, probably the right decision.

Being that l go to the theatre on my own, l never actually feel safe travelling on a train late at night, l use National Express who offer a superb service into London Victoria... just a thought!

Best wishes
Caz

Yes I know what you mean. It would have been easier yesterday to announce what was operating rather than what wasn't.

I appreciate the economics of the situation and I don't expect it to change - just letting off steam as it seems to go on endlessly weekend after weekend. My only viable way into London is via the tube and the line I'm on wasn't actually affected (apart from the overcrowding) and once in I agree that walking is always quicker. It just made me reflect on how many people might stay at home simply because the hassle was too much. From an economics viewpoint that's people who won't be buying theatre tickets, visiting galleries, having a meal, going shopping, etc. So good economic sense for LT but pants for everybody else. Still as long as we're ready for 2012!

There's more to successful Sunday opening than getting the people who work in theatre to agree to it.

Today (from TfLwebsite). Say no more! And let's not even get started on National Rail.

Minor delays Central Part closure
Circle Part closure
District Part closure
H'Smith & City Part closure
Jubilee Part closure
Metropolitan Part closure
Northern Part closure
Piccadilly Good service
Victoria Good service
Waterloo & City Planned closure

These engineering works should have been started many many years ago.

I usually find the late Waterloo-Portsmouth line packed so don't worry too much about trains whereas I don't like the Tube anytime really least of all at night, so I usually splash out on a taxi to Waterloo

I catch the many coaches in from Oxford and then walk everywhere...it seems the only foolproof method on a Sunday! It once took my daughter an hour to get to Victoria from St Pancras on a Sunday as her undreground train was so delayed!

That's bad. I can walk from Euston to Victoria in 55 minutes.

I gave up using the Tube for inner-London travel when a journey from the New London to Euston via Leicester Square station took me forty minutes, resulting in a missed train. It's less than twenty minutes on foot.

A bus would get you from Holborn (3 minute walk from the New London) to Euston in about 4 minutes. And there are at least 3 different buses on that route so you rarely need to wait more than a couple of minutes.

Perhaps. Or perhaps not. The point is that if I walk I know how long the journey will take. If I have twenty minutes before my train leaves and the journey takes eighteen minutes then I will reach the station in time. But if I wait for a bus and there's some problem earlier on the route then it's not until too late that I discover I'm not going to make it. I'd rather do the journey in a time that's entirely under my control than in the fastest time possible with a risk of missing my train.

I even walk when I'm going to somewhere like the Adelphi. I have the time to walk. Why add unnecessary uncertainty to the journey?

I completely understand your position.

I know the Underground's weekend line closures can be a great nuisance,
& (as above) the list can seem overwhelming -
but often the closed parts of the lines are in suburbs a long way out of the Centre -
ie not affecting travel within central London & Theatreland.

I wouldn't like this thread to put potential tourists off visiting London for Theatre weekends!

What sort of price are taxis within London?

Eg how much might a taxi be on a Sunday early evening from Lauderdale House (Archway/Highgate) to the Finborough (Earls Court)?

(Public transport can't accomplish the journey within the time between the 2 shows.)

Is there anything magic about the MONDAY night, that you don't get on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday? I do quite understand that Sundays are not easy for a majority of tube-dependant outer zone people, but I don't see how losing one of the four mid-week shows (Friday's practically the weekend!) is a great problem, when the Sunday shows will be an advantage to the mainstay of West End audiences - tourists!

Fraid I can't help you with that, I only know that Waterloo to the West End is/was around the £7-8 mark. I'm afraid I love black cabs and treat myself to them as I don't visit London that much!

But that's the point I'm trying to make! If you live in the suburbs, as I do, you can't get in easily if your one and only line isn't operating. Once you're into London there's buses, taxis, walking and so on - no problem. But when you get to your home station and find services suspended (not unusual at the weekend) then you're stuck with, perhaps, an expensive theatre seat that you may have bought months in advance and you're not going to be able to use because you now don't have enough time to take alternative routes (with the extra time involved) and make it for curtain up. Even if you are aware of the potential problem it's still a pain in the rear end and could well put off the less determined from trying again. I assume it is also the same for people coming in from well outside London to the main terminii and suddenly finding a similar problem (e.g. the Victoria line seems permanently out most weekends). As for puting off tourists that certainly isn't the point of my post/peeve. I would feel even sorrier for them - I know my way round London well and can quickly get from A to B. But if you're new in town that's baffling enough in itself without trying to organise yourself an alternative route.

All I'm saying is that going to the theatre should be pleasurable; at weekends, LT seem to be conspiring more and more to turn it into a preplanned military operation of mammoth proportions.

Um... look, I travel in from a suburb when I go to London, and I know that the Tube is massively unreliable, especially at weekends. Therefore, when I'm going in to London, I hop online and check the lines are running all right. Okay, so the TFL website won't give me five hours notice that the signals are going to fail just as I want to travel in, but most of the time, they know in advance that the trains aren't going to be running right, so by checking online in advance, I have time to make alternative arrangements. As opposed to naively trusting that, despite knowing TFL is massively unreliable, the trains will be running exactly as I want them to. Srsly, you have internet access, you know the transport links are unreliable, http://www.tfl.gov.uk is your best friend. If you get to know it well, anyone can avoid most "OH NO I'M AT THE STATION AND SHOCKINGLY THERE IS NO TRAIN!" issues.

Of course I can and do - frequently. That doesn't mean to say all punters can/will/should. Transport costs here are high compared with many other world cities - is it too much to expect a level of service for paying this? It's about this being a possible contributing factor in limiting people's invovlement with theatre not my own personal arrangements.

The magic of mondays is the availability of tickets and ability to change seats if stuck behind someone tall.

Of course those of us who live on the victoria line cant get home on the tube as it shuts at 10, and yes weekends need to allow an hour or so on the bus as likely both the tube and local train is closed.

Last weekend the tube was shut sat and not sun, and yes anyone living further out not on the tube is stranded many a weekend due to so many station closures. TFL is not good for train news, better of checking southern/great western/capital etc.

Ah - please forgive me - but the magic of Monday is no tourists.

Yes, yes, you can shoot me - and, while you shoot me, let me add no fangirls - and in most performances, full (regular) cast performances. I have felt for a long while now that Monday nights were performances I could be sure of a reasonably great seat at a reasonable price at a not-unbelievably-advance booking; 98% sure of regular cast performing (--though to be honest, less so in the last few months because I have seen more understudies--though again to be sure, the understudies have been terrific); again 98% sure of non-screaming fanatics in the audience of said regular cast; and 98% sure of people I didn't have to explain anything to, especially the English colloquialisms (ok - I'm a terrible person - sometimes I'd just like to be left alone at the theatre). So a bit of an ideal show.

Now truly, I think Sunday performances and a dark theatre on Monday nights are a far better economic deal for the West End and one that I fully support - because, really, it's much better for more people to be able to see the show (London public transport notwithstanding).

My outstanding question: if West End stars are beginning to take off two shows a week, which shall they be? Two on Saturday and one on Sunday screams Wednesday Matinee and either Sat/Sun matinee to me. Thoughts?

Edited to say: Monday tix were normally booked at the last minute. So yes, I've felt for a long while Monday tix were "meant" for London locals, and if that ain't working for the West End, then it is time to change.

What proportion of London theatre goers live in the suburbs? And how many of them drive into central London?

I'm not convinced that tube closures make a huge difference. Of course, it's a pain. Last year I signed up for a half-marathon in Amersham. I checked beforehand that I could take the tube and how long it would take. A couple weeks before the run, TFL announced that they would be shutting down the Metropolitan line that weekend, so I ended up having to take a train, doubling my travel time. I had to get up at 5am. In the end, I was exhausted and sleep deprived, wishing that I had just stayed in bed.

But--and this is the point of the story--everyone else didn't seem to have any problem getting there. They all drove. And I imagine a lot of people in the suburbs drive. Parking on Sundays isn't that bad.

Economically, it doesn't matter how many people want to see a show on Sunday. What matters is how many people want to see a show on Sunday who would otherwise not go to the theatre at all. Sunday performances are going to cost several thousand pounds more than performances on other days and they need new theatregoers to provide that extra money. If all they're doing is transferring people from other days of the week they'll be worse off.

Audiences won't have any more to spend on theatre than they do now so I wouldn't expect them to go to the theatre more often. I don't know anyone outside the theatre industry itself whose ability to go to the theatre is restricted by the availability of weekend performances they are able to attend. So where are the extra ticket sales going to come from? It seems to be an article of faith among supporters of Sunday working that there's a horde of potential theatregoers just waiting for the chance to see a show. I'm struggling to believe in it.

That is one reason why the NT's decision to play 7 days a week is unfair. It allows them to get a larger proportion of the available pot, whereas the individual West End producers can't increase their number of performances beyond 8, whatever day or time.

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I don't think that's entirely true, Matthew Winn. There are people who currently go to the theatre but would go more often with Sunday performances (some of them people I know well). In addition, there's an untapped potential on Sundays that doesn't exist on a Monday -- for example, in my own life, any number of visitors from abroad who leave London on a Monday, but would see a show on a Sunday. I think there's just a larger target on a Sunday afternoon than on a Monday night.

I also think some (large) portion of potential uptick may come from tourism, though, and in this economy that is perhaps not best to rely on.

I have a few friends who I meet with in Central London periodically on a weekend. One lives in Reading, one in Hampshire, one in Essex - so central London is the most convenient meeting place for us. The standard is for us to meet in Leicester Square for lunch and a chat about midday, and then decide what to do with the rest of the afternoon.

Now, on a saturday it is quite easy for us to take a look at the TKTS board and decide to see a show, but we often can't meet on a saturday, and so do a sunday instead. It's always been dissapointing that there's hardly anything to see on a sunday afternoon.

I'm a regular theatre-goer, but my friends are not. So if we suddenly have more options fo sunday matinees it is very possible that we'll see more shows than before.

The only time I'd go to the theatre on a monday night is if I had tuesday off work - I just get home too late, otherwise. And I know my friends would never do a monday night show.

From the point of view of someone who has to travel a fair distance to get to London to go and see a show, Monday night is much better, I do however understand that for others Sunday is better. It's a case of deciding on which is easier for the majority of people and due to the already discussed transport issues, I would say leaving it as is would be better, but it's not my decision and my opinion isn't really that important to the people who are deciding.

I would be happy with a Sunday show, I would use it to see those things that none of my friends want to see. I'd be willing to miss a long Sunday lunch in the pub if there was something I wanted to see at the theatre. So mine would be one extra bum on a seat because it would be in addition to the other theatre visits I make.

As for travelling - I live in Chiswick (District line), but I always catch a bus to Hammersmith (or walk if I'm not feeling too lazy) when the line is down. At Hammersmith I have the choice of 2 other lines. I lived out of London for years and I'm always amazed when everyone complains about London transport - I think it's great.

What chance of any improvement in service now that it's been revealed that TfL have £40 million squirrelled away in (failed) Icelandic banks? Maybe I'll take up cycling