52 replies to this topic

[Matthew Winn]

I was thinking the same..I don't understand how someone can comment on spelling and grammar in a forum! To me its not important in a forum at all..

It's important everywhere, for four reasons:

(1) If you write something it's fair to assume that you want to get your point across as effectively as possible. Otherwise, why bother? If you write sloppily then not only are you presenting your point badly, but also you're saying to your readers "my time is more important than yours; you can spend time working out what I'm trying to say because I can't be bothered to fix my errors myself". Right from the start you've crippled your argument by insulting your readers.

(2) For anyone of adequate intelligence it shouldn't take any effort to get the spelling and grammar right 99% of the time. It isn't rocket science. With the exception of those who have genuine medical problems that make expressing themselves in writing difficult, good grammar and spelling should come naturally to every single native speaker of English. It's something foreigners can pick up in a few years of part time study. If you've been speaking English since childhood and writing it for only a couple of years less then you shouldn't be having problems with things like "they're", "there" and "their" or "it's" and "its". They should come to you so naturally that you don't even notice there's a choice.

(3) If you're accustomed to writing badly when you think it doesn't matter you won't notice errors when you think it does matter. Many people ruin job applications because they're so used to ignoring spelling and grammar in their own writing that they never notice when their cover letter looks like it was written by a child. You can't rely on computers: spelling checkers help a little, but they're unreliable and there's not a working grammar checker in existence. I've seen vital business letters sent by corporate directors to important customers where the writing would have disgraced a twelve-year-old. The senders were so used to the "only when it matters" approach that they never noticed the poor impression they were creating.

(4) The very concept that being right is something to be reserved for special occasions is just plain weird. This attitude that being wrong is just as good as being right is far too common these days. Ignorance and sloppiness are not things to take pride in, or to defend.

[Matthew Winn]

It's important everywhere, for four reasons:

Thank you for this.  I can add the following

5. Not everyone living in Britain has English as a first language.

I was born in Hamburg and I learned English at school. Then I learned more when I went the the USA where I met my Husband, whose first language is Polish. We now live in the UK, and know a  great many folk who were not born here. If a post is written really  badly I often get very frustrated because I would really like to understand what is being said.  This can , of course be funny. I read someplace on here the following word "aldoes". I kept reading it over and over again wondering what it meant--then suddenly I realized that it meant Andrew Lloyd does.

Misspellings are also a problem for blind people using screen readers. In my last job I was the company's accessibility expert and had to do quite a lot of work with screen readers (text to speech software). When you've spent a couple of hours with your monitor turned off, trying to work out what's on the screen from speech alone, you rapidly develop great contempt for people who assume everyone else can work out what they mean no matter how sloppily they write.

Incidentally, did you know that native English speakers now make up a minority of speakers of the language? 60% of all those who have a working knowledge of English speak it as a second language. It's your language now, not ours.

[Annasette]

Hear, hear, re the first points, Matthew!

I haven't involved myself in the issue re dreadful use of English before. But I do find it utterly appalling that so many are basicaly incompetent in their own language. Genuine dyslexia or other medical issue aside, and/or foreign speakers who haven't had time to learn, there is really no excuse for it. And the attempts to defend it are frankly pathetic. And as per the lady above, I also know a number of people whose first language is not English, and without exception their use of the beautiful and expressive English language is still infinitely superior to that demonstated so often by so many native speakers.

The odd typo, the odd unthinking mistake, can always occasionally slip through. But in almost all cases, you can tell the difference between mistake and incompetence. Some examples have already been mentioned, and such as getting "they're", "there" and "their" confused (a particular personal dislike) is NEVER a mistake. Correct use is AUTOMATIC with understanding. Confusing "to", "too" and "two" is never a mistake either. And another awful example is the many who don't even seem to know that when they are saying "should've" (could've, would've), they are saying "should have" rather than the "should of" that gets written. "Of" isn't even a verb! And on top of appalling spelling, misunderstanding of words and inability to apparently even know what constitutes an intelligible sentence, all is then further confused by inappropriate and sometimes non-existent use of punctuation. Why should the reader be expected to have to waste their time trying to interpret a jumble into some point that is apparently still supposed to be viewed with respect, and as purportedly having merit, when the writer is so careless and disrespectful?

And whatever issues there are here, try looking at contributions to the likes of Digital Spy and some comments left on Youtube etc. To say it is frightening is not even putting it mildly. It is grotesque! And it is not even just the language either, it is the equivalent level of inadequate thinking as well.

So I am going to add point 6.

Incompetence, carelessness and sloppiness re technique in any field should be abhored. Use of language is no different. And sloppy and inadequate writing reflects sloppy and inadequate thinking.



Rant over....But I have quite surprised myself at how angry I am at the abuse of the language, and that it has somehow become politically incorrect to express that or even to care. In many ways it is another example of the prevalent disgraceful worship of mediocrity (if it gets as good as that).

[jimee1987]

Some examples have already been mentioned, and such as getting "they're", "there" and "their" confused (a particular personal dislike) is NEVER a mistake. Correct use is AUTOMATIC with understanding.

Not always, I do understand the difference between the three however I always had trouble knowing which one to use. It wasn't until my second year of GCSE's that a teacher realised the problem and gave me help with it. Even now I have to think about it everytime I use "there", "their" or "they're", it doesn't come automatically.

I can see your point and I do think it's polite to type with correct spellings and grammar as much as possible, however, I also think you shouldn't generalise. Some people with dyslexia can spell very well, some people without it have problems.

[Annasette]

Different people obviously have different abilities, but in some ways what you have just written demonstrates the biggest difference of all. And that is the difference between someone who essentially cares and the alternative! And although you say you had difficulty with "they're" etc, and that you still now have to think about it, you DO think about it. But had you not been fortunate enough to have had the uncertainty spotted and use clarified, then you would have known that you weren't sure and you should, at some point, have done something about it yourself. My criticism is re the many who just don't care and can't be bothered!

[wickedgrin]

Back to the thread topic ( must watch the spelling though ), I've ( is the ' in the right place? - there will be hell to pay if it isn't ) just got back from the Liza Minelli  (whoops Minnelli ) concert tonight and ALW was in the audience with the three remaining Nancys. Jodie got by far the biggest cheer.